#73 Rainer Becker, Business Development Director, MOIA

00:00:00: Well, come back to the Wunder Mobility podcast.

00:00:03: I'm Gunnar Ho and about fifteen years ago a new kind of car sharing arrived in Hamburg... ...and i was living half-in-city at a shared apartment where we were all excited about these new cars on this street giving us freedom into city.

00:00:16: No stations no paperwork.

00:00:18: you found your car on your phone drove it across town left it on the street And that person who negotiated that launch did same in Vienna Amsterdam Lyon Düsseldorf Berlin.

00:00:29: As my guest today, Rainer Becker is an aeronautical engineer by training from AirVTHA Aachen.

00:00:35: He has spent almost three decades in the automotive and mobility industry... ...and he's run shared fleets on three continents which very few people can say!

00:00:44: He was COO of Cardugo in Europe when free-floating car sharing was brand new.. ..he then moved to Beijing as president CEO of Cardigo China And launched Chongqing which reached a hundred thousand customers in just the few months.

00:00:59: The fastest ramp up card ago ever had, and after that came to Detroit as CEO of GM's Maven And then to Shanghai where he built a ride-hailing business at the EV startup Biden.

00:01:12: some people remember that spectacular car?

00:01:14: He led the commercial side of their sharing technology platform Sharing OS also in Shanghai.

00:01:20: Since twenty twenty four has been now director of Business Development at Moya back in Hamburg, Volkswagen's mobility company.

00:01:27: And this July Moja started carrying passengers and self-driving ID bus vehicles... ...in different parts of the city.

00:01:34: so quite an interesting milestone!

00:01:36: So todays question is a practical one for everyone listening who runs their own fleet?

00:01:41: when car drives itself what changes?

00:01:44: What stays exactly the same?

00:01:45: Who cleans it?

00:01:46: Who charges it?

00:01:47: and who owns the customer.

00:01:50: So that's what we want to talk about, And if you run a car sharing with three hundred cars today What should he be doing right now?

00:01:56: If anything Reiner welcome to this show!

00:01:58: Yeah

00:01:58: Thank You very much.

00:01:59: Happy To Be Here

00:02:00: Let Start at The Beginning Going Back To Car To Go Days Even Though It's A while ago But Such As Spectacular Like Kind Of Early Innovation Bold International Rollout And So On Always Trying To Probe A Little Bit Like For What Are Some Lessons?

00:02:13: Still Fascinated By It You were also involved in the Austin launch.

00:02:18: Austin for some reason was after Olm, Cardergo's second city and what would you say in hindsight went wrong if he will do it all over?

00:02:28: Going international at this early or other details around the launch in Austin since its not there anymore today.

00:02:35: so in hindsight what went wrong with his perfect plan?

00:02:39: Plans are always plans and reality is reality.

00:02:43: I think that's one of the most important learnings.

00:02:47: We tend to discuss always about stuff and make scenarios, thinking what might happen or not but at the end we have people out there who are irrational.

00:02:58: There is a lot happening you don't anticipate.

00:03:01: so i can encourage everyone who has a plan just try it instead of thinking too much.

00:03:06: That may be one of our learnings.

00:03:13: Let's say degrees of freedom for people, you would be able to just hire a car on the spot without telling anyone.

00:03:20: You wouldn't have to tell where and when you leave it.

00:03:23: so we had a lot of flexibility in.

00:03:25: that also brought a lot of complexity for us.

00:03:28: And we have made, you know... We've brought lots of thoughts into this like how can we manage it?

00:03:34: How do I operate the car?

00:03:35: Even academic people who told me that is never possible!

00:03:38: How to clean your car if they don't know where will be at which point in

00:03:41: time?!

00:03:42: So make sure these cars are kept properly.

00:03:44: and we said okay we tried anyway.

00:03:47: but what i really encourage everyone bring stuff on road as soon as possible because reality out there And for Austin, I would say we had always a plan to go international and also go the US.

00:04:01: Car sharing was pretty new at that point of time especially our first free floating car sharing.

00:04:07: We have an iconic company called Zipcar At That Time that basically paved the way.

00:04:14: Actually there were kind of role model for us where they said okay what?

00:04:18: What does not go right there that people like, they have in a million inhabitants cities and only two three four five thousand users.

00:04:27: So what is actually stopping people from using them?

00:04:30: because it's super cool idea?

00:04:33: And this how we came up with the flexibility of our process.

00:04:38: at the end I think We did good job just trying out taking Austin, just doing it there and we had a lot of cities in North America that actually worked out pretty well.

00:04:51: Totally unanticipated like for example Calgary in Canada.

00:04:54: Calgary was more like I don't know a sidekick or something but became one our most successful city's.

00:05:01: so thats alot learnings from.

00:05:03: yeah dont think too much Just go ahead and do it.

00:05:07: And you really did that because in just a few years, You launched the number of cities also in Europe Hamburg Vienna Amsterdam Berlin In about three years.

00:05:15: Yeah...and you already mentioned That they didn't move in parallel.

00:05:19: So some went unexpectedly well others more difficult.

00:05:22: What made a launch successful at The time?

00:05:25: Why Did Some Cities Move Faster Than Others?

00:05:27: I mean At the beginning when we started It We were Thinking about there must be clusters of cities like.

00:05:33: these are the cities where things go easy.

00:05:35: These are cities were it's maybe a little bit more difficult, but at the end what we learned is that every city is very individual.

00:05:42: Every City has its culture Its history It's set up you know how streets are managed and then how they're organized.

00:05:52: so We found out Every city is really special.

00:05:56: It has its own dynamics, it's own vibe.

00:05:59: and so for example in Germany Berlin was our most successful city.

00:06:03: And I think that's quite clear because Berlin at the time especially coming up in the ten, two thousand tens was kind of becoming fashionable and becoming a real capital.

00:06:16: And we really felt this from the demand.

00:06:20: I think a lot is really form the vibe off the cities where for example Vienna when it's at some point of time also developed a feeling that came to city you arrive on the airport or go downtown experience like the dynamics.

00:06:39: We immediately thought, wow this is a great cartagosity.

00:06:42: You just feel it because you feel like the dynamics and energy.

00:06:46: And we also heard that some of the electronics companies when they bring new electronics to Europe They will use Vienna as a kind of proofing ground Because I think people there are open-minded and somehow accepting these innovations.

00:07:01: This really helped us launch our studies.

00:07:05: It sounds Definition of an early adopter like a certain yeah,

00:07:10: exactly.

00:07:10: Exactly share

00:07:11: off.

00:07:11: the population is open to new products

00:07:13: and it was really like.

00:07:15: You know there were cities where you arrived And he would have five lawyers in front of view who will tell The people from the transfer authority what's not possible?

00:07:36: Of course, the authorities are one important aspect because at that time.

00:07:40: One of the big issues was about parking.

00:07:43: it was totally new to authorities to give away parking by not paying at a pay box and all.

00:07:49: so they would really like stumble upon like okay how do we do this legally?

00:07:53: That these people may or paid their parking fees I think nowadays is somehow clarified.

00:07:58: but At that time there were totally insecure about How To Do That And some cities where very bullish on it and some were really cautious because I thought they run into some trouble.

00:08:08: That was quite interesting!

00:08:14: cost

00:08:31: factor and also trouble you have is everything around damages.

00:08:36: You will have a lot of damages either caused by customers or cause other participants in traffic, even vandalism where people just kick off your mirrors because I like to do that.

00:08:48: So that's just one issue to keep this in a good shape.

00:08:53: And then there is including even your customers, I mean at GM later at Maven we installed cameras inside the cars so it would of course not record all the time and its not allowed but when they will be special event like cornering or strange accelerations Send it to a server and we would be able to see what's going on.

00:09:14: You have no idea What kind of stuff you were seeing there?

00:09:17: So, it's what we also learned is that people whenever they use something That doesn't belong to them They are not as cautious As this will be their own thing.

00:09:24: so just to manage these kinds Of issues one bigger cost factor.

00:09:28: the other one as your mentions insurance.

00:09:29: And then parking is also big issue.

00:09:32: when you zoom into the damages Do you see different strategies or dimensions how to tackle them?

00:09:40: You mentioned for example, it sounds like holding people accountable.

00:09:44: Maybe have a camera.

00:09:45: in the end of day they charge person but I guess other levers would be who do you let into service at beginning and policy saying we just don't repair most things

00:09:57: Right.

00:09:58: Exactly, so I think it's very much about being strict also with your members.

00:10:03: but on the other hand you need to make sure that you can prove whose responsibility this damage was because often times people will basically blame eachother and know if there is a guy before me or after him.

00:10:17: This is why we need technical equipment Because first you have to nail down those people to make sure that you know who exactly caused the damage, and then other thing is done to be very strict.

00:10:27: And it's because damages can really difficult... ...and you need basically tell them this isn't acceptable.

00:10:35: Do

00:10:35: have an odd of magnitude?

00:10:37: I'm still in mind from back when people came compared to like what percentage of damages roughly would you be able to assign to a user and actually get reimbursed?

00:10:46: Very few, initially.

00:10:48: A small property.

00:10:49: Maybe twenty percent or so because it is just... I mean we even had this kind tick box where say okay i took over the car in complete state And then if there was a damage recognized by the next guy, people would still say oh sorry that it wasn't me.

00:11:04: I just didn't see it or whatever.

00:11:05: so as its really difficult to argue with your customers especially again If you don't have the proof.

00:11:11: So we struggled alot with this.

00:11:13: also at that time technology was not prepared.

00:11:16: cameras or microphones and what ever were not Common and nowadays if you have a car, I mean it has a three hundred sixty degree view around the car.

00:11:26: So we always know what's going on in the car.

00:11:28: but at that time That wasn't available.

00:11:30: so It was of course difficult.

00:11:32: But again today technology i think makes possible lot more surveillance.

00:11:36: this anecdote about Chongqing In China And supposedly going to one hundred thousand members in A span off for few months If thats correct like that is written How do explain?

00:11:50: Went on there.

00:11:50: Is it pure luck like maybe?

00:11:53: No, now

00:11:54: we have to go into how Chinese people think and European People Think.

00:12:00: So first thing is I'm Chongqing as probably the biggest city in the world.

00:12:04: Nobody just knows that.

00:12:05: this has may be forty million Inhabitants.

00:12:08: nobody really knows because a lot of people who Just move their work then they're never ever counted.

00:12:14: for when you arrive at the airport in Chongqing That's like twenty kilometers north downtown area, what a huge area.

00:12:22: You'd basically drive on the motorway or in the train for twenty kilometers.

00:12:27: just left and right there are high races with people living inside yeah?

00:12:30: And they all look the same.

00:12:32: it's crazy.

00:12:33: I don't know how people find their apartments at night.

00:12:34: It is amazing.

00:12:36: i've never seen so many apartments one spot.

00:12:39: So its'a huge city.

00:12:40: that first thing of course you have big pool of people.

00:12:42: On other hand offcourse In China income level was less and our pricing actually pretty premium.

00:12:48: So you have like a limited number, maybe six million people also.

00:12:52: I think at that time we assessed who would be able to afford this kind of mobility but still the big... You know, six million is still a lot compared to European cities.

00:13:01: Berlin has three point five to four million.

00:13:03: so first it's the pool of people what?

00:13:05: The second thing very important is the mindset.

00:13:08: People in China are very interested in innovations.

00:13:12: Yeah!

00:13:12: If i had to sell Car to go, I mean assault car to go for example in Dusseldorf and the pedestrian zone.

00:13:18: And also sold it in Chongqing at a shopping mall.

00:13:23: If you want to go like that dialogue would be okay.

00:13:25: this is the car its thirty cents per minute.

00:13:28: You can just get in and drop wherever you want everything as flexible.

00:13:34: So do you want to become a member?

00:13:35: and then they would get a ton of questions like what happens to my data, if I have an accident.

00:13:40: What happened?

00:13:40: If i wanna quit is my data erased?

00:13:44: all these question and answer them all.

00:13:46: okay let me think about it.

00:13:48: come back after three days say ok i've been thinking about this.

00:13:53: Yeah, so in China it's the same thing.

00:13:55: Thirty cents is just a car.

00:13:57: get in whenever you want Get out wherever you want and then you don't even finish talking.

00:14:02: they will say okay how can I join?

00:14:04: Chinese people really never think about problems.

00:14:07: They think well about risks for them The biggest risk not to be part of that.

00:14:13: So there are much more curious.

00:14:15: There're much more opportunity driven than risk-driven And this is why so many people joined us right away.

00:14:22: They really wanted to try it out, on the other hand of course because they are curious... toy very soon.

00:14:29: So it's difficult to keep them going, to keep the loyal to the product.

00:14:33: so this is why we got a lot of members and we tried our best to keep him going And I think that did great job as really easy.

00:14:41: because they just love new stuff.

00:14:43: They always see an opportunity in your staff To improve their lives make more convenient work sighting.

00:14:50: This was i would say the main leverage for us amount of members ever in any category.

00:15:00: And the way you describe that, I think you see it as a general mindset and China often not just kind of mobility.

00:15:09: here's a problem.

00:15:09: That is why we all need to run here.

00:15:10: General mindset?

00:15:12: Let us say if your restaurant opens people are waiting for three hours... I remember there was a Shake Shack opening at Shanghai.

00:15:22: You know, just like a better McDonald's in the US is very normal.

00:15:25: Nothing special.

00:15:26: They would queue up for three hours to get a burger And to take a picture with the burger and put it on WeChat.

00:15:33: It's so special that we want to be part of these new things, experience them, talk about it... Have this experience!

00:15:42: So it is very important for them.

00:15:45: This kind of behaviour not even people or authorities are like us.

00:15:51: I said in front A guy in, I think in Qingdao and explained them.

00:15:57: so this is what we are doing.

00:15:59: And then they said oh we have a problem because you guys...you're not right-hailing You're not rental So we don't have regulation for you.

00:16:07: We say okay now the discussion is over Because Germany without regulation No business.

00:16:14: But he says Oh do know What?

00:16:17: Just go ahead I look at it and see what happens.

00:16:21: And if i like, we make a good regulation.

00:16:23: If you don't like it We find some bad regulations

00:16:25: for you.

00:16:26: Then You might be out of business.

00:16:28: But that's it.

00:16:29: Oh my god.

00:16:30: What happens in one year?

00:16:32: He takes us all the business.

00:16:34: That was our way Of thinking.

00:16:36: Chinese people usually Don't think about this.

00:16:38: They say Okay let go Let just do It!

00:16:40: If The Regulation goes against Us then We will Find Some Way To Deal With These Vehicles Later.

00:16:45: I think most people in Germany, me myself included are much more familiar with kind of like an American context.

00:16:51: Maybe been there for whatever school or work or so on and some part of what you describe we attribute a little bit also with Americans to be open for innovation.

00:17:02: And since you've worked also then multiple rounds and contexts them as a third party on this spectrum.

00:17:12: You talked about the Germans, the Chinese and then let's say you go to a pedestrian zone in Austin and talk about this discussion.

00:17:19: what will they respond?

00:17:20: Yeah it is usually very rational discussions And we want see how.

00:17:25: does value for us help us?

00:17:28: Here in Germany these discussions are often more ideological and like okay Does society or whatever Americans wanna make deal?

00:17:37: I mean We see that from their president.

00:17:38: right now They basically want to see, okay what is in there for me?

00:17:43: and then they will assess.

00:17:45: What does the risk against it?

00:17:46: And I'm OK let's do it because that's an opportunity for us.

00:17:49: so

00:17:49: risk based Germany deal-based opportunities based on US and curiosity innovation

00:17:57: or being a part of China

00:18:00: It's like going away from mobility.

00:18:02: but you've had this experience also different context.

00:18:08: Does curiosity translate into innovation eventually and product innovation?

00:18:13: Do you think that's where this is going, they will basically not just outproduce but out-innovate.

00:18:19: Yeah actually it helps them a lot because let us what I mentioned at the beginning You can put things in reality very fast in China... ...you don't have to convince anyone.

00:18:28: try your stuff In Europe.

00:18:31: we might spend alot of time to convince people to try this And feedback looks are much slower In China, you have very fast feedback loops because throughout the product it's picked up right away.

00:18:40: There are so many people and they're so engaged that You very quickly get a feed back on your can improve again And you throw out again?

00:18:47: You got to be very fast and People also share lot in order like to share what I do and what their experience.

00:18:55: That is interesting for us.

00:18:57: For example i was in Rome with my wife recently.

00:19:02: She found so many good tips on the Chinese blog about what to do in Rome, much more than I would find a German blog.

00:19:11: Because people in China really love to share their experience and they're fine!

00:19:15: They gave a lot of useful tips like how you get into this museum easier?

00:19:19: There's also site entrance which we will never find in German blogs... And i was very amazed that it is far away from them.. Rome

00:19:27: right?!

00:19:27: But there are even more tips sites or social media than you would find on the European ones.

00:19:35: Because they love to share also, and this accelerates innovation because sharing gives very fast feedback which helps improve your product.

00:19:44: Super interesting!

00:19:46: I'd like a little bit about the Maven episode coming from Cardiobot to Maven as that was another bold chapter for a major OEM for GM to launch I guess, like a series of these new mobility services.

00:20:01: And then the way that you were brought in to be in charge of European expansion and within weeks they sold maybe their European assets Opel or so?

00:20:12: They never expanded those products right?

00:20:15: Why do think not just based on GM but generally now about having those insights?

00:20:20: and then Cargo before and Diamond before?

00:20:23: why did.

00:20:24: many OEMs abandoned these services now and is not going to swing back or like they're out for good.

00:20:31: Why did that turn so quickly from being so urgent, important all of a sudden divesting?

00:20:37: Not just one across the board almost.

00:20:40: I think they realized that this is a very different business with some very different businesses dynamics, but then thought okay we are probably not right people to manage it.

00:20:49: first thing for example thinking about OEMs usually and now it changes little bit with these agency models by.

00:20:55: at time there were all dealer based so They would have no contact with their private customers.

00:21:01: It will be the dealers.

00:21:02: So they sold cars to dealers And dealers had relationship with an individual customer.

00:21:08: But with these mobility services, suddenly had to serve hundreds of thousands people.

00:21:14: And they have to know them how to understand what they do and who has a relationship with them... ...and didn't even know how to do this!

00:21:20: Just the fact that it's different if you write ten invoices for A, one hundred thousand euros versus one hundred thousands at ten euros per invoice.

00:21:33: Just all these processes were not made for OEMs.

00:21:37: So they really had to struggle to understand those business models and this is I think one of the, you know it's a culture Attitude kind of thing where they really realized, okay.

00:21:48: This is very different.

00:21:49: We are not the right people to handle this kind off.

00:21:51: with our organization was our complexity to handle those kinds Of business.

00:21:56: it seems like there's a lot To gain because when you say like access to end consumers and so on it's like the alarm goes Off.

00:22:02: everybody wants that.

00:22:03: yeah want to know we're ultimately selling too?

00:22:05: And maybe control that narrative.

00:22:07: but Is It That Basically The adoption Was Then Like slower than anticipated, so the models were not profitable by themselves quickly enough.

00:22:18: And and so basically it became too risky to continue this path right?

00:22:22: Yeah sure I mean profitability of course is another.

00:22:25: as an other issue.

00:22:26: um i mean you always have to imagine we were Painful experiences know all this damage stuff.

00:22:35: We had people even camping in our car stuff like this With we all have to get under control yet People would basically use the parking scheme to park their own cars for free and stuff, you know really?

00:22:46: Like interesting stories And that took some time to get it under control To really understand.

00:22:52: and as a very similar to what experience now is autonomous driving.

00:22:55: I guess they're going to talk about this later But its at the beginning of an industry everything super inefficient because you learn so much, yeah?

00:23:03: Because we don't anticipate certain behaviors of people.

00:23:07: You need to learn this and do it as well.

00:23:08: So take some time when you spend out-of money for these kind of learnings... And maybe where the OEM's who are also probably more driven by quarterly profit forecasts not long term developments isn't another thing in which in China or even the US is different, they have a strong long-term thinking about stuff.

00:23:31: And there we often lose patience to follow up on.

00:23:35: and this maybe another reason yeah?

00:23:37: Let's fast forward to Moja then because that where you are at the moment leading business development In your like terms for not everybody knows what it right now What running in Hamburg right now?

00:23:54: So here in Hamburg, we are running an integrated ride pooling service.

00:23:58: It means that you try to pull as many rides possible with one vehicle which helps get cars off the road and it actually works pretty well.

00:24:07: I mean when i use Moya, I'm rarely alone.

00:24:10: there's always someone either already in a car or entering while sitting inside.

00:24:16: so how do we run?

00:24:17: this in Hamburg is very integrated bought and designed the cars actually, we made a platform to organize all this right pooling.

00:24:27: And to organize the fleet and to manage it into know what's going on.

00:24:31: We also operated.

00:24:33: so we employed drivers who are driving those cars picking up our passengers.

00:24:39: This is Hamburg.

00:24:39: but now we said okay let scale this But scaling I mean this was for my experience in car sharing, if you do it yourself.

00:24:47: It brings a lot of complexity.

00:24:48: You have to find companies in other countries and hire teams or understand the dynamics that bring complexity.

00:24:58: so let's not do all this underground work ourselves but look for local operators who can take technology and use it to offer mobility services.

00:25:09: And there are a lot of people in these cities who can do this already like public transport companies or taxi companies, even car shareholders other fleet providers.

00:25:19: yeah I think that's pretty smart turn because we avoid all those complexities.

00:25:24: at the same time you bring our technology into the city now basically sell the technology to those operators.

00:25:32: and yeah, the other big thing of course is we made it autonomous.

00:25:35: Yeah so right now We have we are driver-based And you know in the process of increasing the number of autonomous cars In The fleet in Hamburg?

00:25:43: We Have already a pilot operation out There and public can use this.

00:25:47: which Are these iconic ID bus.

00:25:50: Exactly Yeah, so ID bus IDs from Volkswagen based on the series ID bus.

00:25:56: we added a couple of further technologies to make it drive autonomously.

00:26:00: And I think It's worth mentioning The scale and time frame Of that experience because We said earlier maybe sometimes OEMs tend To not have the patience and stuff and i think here at least From my perspective Im impressed At what scale?

00:26:14: How long this knowledge has been built up?

00:26:17: Because how many like roughly Like A few hundred What's the latest number?

00:26:22: something.

00:26:22: but like several hundred cars are on the roads in right pooling over?

00:26:27: Several years is enough five years.

00:26:30: Yeah, for a human driven Right Pooling we have about five hundred cars out there and this was since two thousand seventeen.

00:26:39: So it's totally visible integrated like established part of that say public transportation in Hamburg For several years.

00:26:47: yes kind of deep experience built up around from anything, like the driver recruiting operating the hub and building almost all I guess technology and fans.

00:26:58: Now when it comes to ADs there's a partner which is also public its mobile eye right?

00:27:03: Technology being used.

00:27:06: so that's more.

00:27:08: now What's interesting about?

00:27:10: kind of now you mentioned a rollout and scaling it up.

00:27:13: And then there are these different potential business models, different players in the space or autonomous driving approaching how they serve this market with different models from an all integrated solution.

00:27:26: maybe that's Waymo I would say?

00:27:29: Actually not even true.

00:27:30: like Waymo some cities but than others have outsourced operations to somebody else to a model where you're like supplying the rights into demand platforms, like Uber or Bolt.

00:27:43: To where maybe just a vehicle going in somebody coming with their own operations on end user app and for kind of audience here which is many cases they are operating car sharing bike-sharing let's say classic shared mobility.

00:27:59: I think that interesting to think about not only what's possible, how might we position ourselves smartly but also when because you don't like invest too early and it never catches up on the ROI.

00:28:12: Is there a dominant model emerging?

00:28:14: How these services will be operated or is all of them above depends upon this city or what does that depend on?

00:28:21: Yeah The point again.

00:28:23: We have another industry That has just been born.

00:28:30: We have this possibility, technically now to have those cars driving autonomously.

00:28:35: That still means you need to manage them and your operation.

00:28:43: You probably want to know what's going on inside And if they're fine or not.

00:28:48: There are a lot of complexities that can arise like sudden road closures.

00:28:52: So there is a lot more complexity.

00:28:57: industry is very new, it's very inexperienced.

00:28:59: So also means that there are no standards or standard processes of standard interfaces where you could say okay please give me your catalog and product brochure.

00:29:09: I just choose XYZ.

00:29:11: then please deliver to know.

00:29:12: its not possible everything still very individualized.

00:29:16: It depends a lot on the customer how far they're in their development technical development digitization.

00:29:23: It also depends on the city you go to, it depends even on geographical or meteorological parameters that have.

00:29:32: For example we are now operating in Oslo where consistently snow and winter is not like here where snow melts away one day its really there for weeks.

00:29:41: so you need to deal with roads that aren't recognizable no lane markings.

00:29:46: So these kind of things influence your business.

00:29:49: There's a lot of uncertainties jumping into certain parts of this value chain.

00:29:55: that has to be managed.

00:29:57: And I think it's still not really clear what is the predominant model?

00:30:01: Is it a model where me as a technology provider, I operate everything myself like Waymo was doing for example or some of the Chinese are doing in China Like rewrite or pony?

00:30:11: Or if there will be let say certain service providers For certain elements of the value chain and someone who just provides the technology, needs to find partners.

00:30:21: To connect too and offer a product or mobility provider.

00:30:26: so it's very unknown at this point of time.

00:30:31: there is really an individual approach for each customer.

00:30:33: right now

00:30:35: It seems like in big cities demand aggregators we want them Uber, Lyft Free Now, Umbold have certain growing market share some control over demand But then at the same time, they want to be seen as a platform so not necessarily running hubs or owning assets.

00:30:54: So I think that it might also depend on markets and market size where in sort of the most high volume-most competitive markets—the big cities–it's maybe more a model with its split value chain whereas in regional secondary markets people will run an integrated product basically a car sharing.

00:31:16: That's now the regional champion in a tier two city, also launching an end consumer hailing product and being able to do that competitively compared where market is not dominated by an aggregator.

00:31:30: But it all should be seen.

00:31:31: if you were in charge of typical caching operator today which typically they might have between five hundred or maximum two thousand cars.

00:31:39: these are huge operations would Advice them to get involved somehow in this AV topic at all right now, To learn or better just not burn any investment yet.

00:31:51: So you definitely need to have a close eye on this industry because In my opinion it's basically like the jump from The horse cart to the combustion engine vehicle.

00:32:03: It will change A lot in our world and if You are a car sharer?

00:32:10: business model, it will change everything where something is steered by human right now.

00:32:16: And that of course basically yeah... It's a must for you to look into this.

00:32:22: the point-of-time is a difficult one.

00:32:26: I always use as wild west example.

00:32:29: let say today want go from New York to San Francisco.

00:32:32: Everything is super clear, you know exactly what's going to happen.

00:32:35: You go to a portal and book your flight or the airport check in get into the airplane six hours later land at San Francisco.

00:32:42: how long it will take?

00:32:43: How much does everything cost for you?

00:32:46: This is where I want to be.

00:32:49: if you are in New York in say eighteen hundred It would totally different game.

00:32:54: Everything is uncertain.

00:32:56: You want to get from New York to San Francisco, you don't even know if he will arrive?

00:33:00: Yeah!

00:33:00: You might become rich on the way... ...you might hunt for furs and find gold or found a farm.

00:33:07: It may take six months of hard work but.... probably something will come in your way, or it might take you ten years.

00:33:14: So this is where we are right now and maybe a little bit further were they may be even already have trains or post carriages so whatever.

00:33:22: but its easier and organized already.

00:33:24: But there's a lot of effort There're lots of inefficiencies A lot uncertainty about what the place would be.

00:33:30: And how do deal with that?

00:33:32: If ure an organization I mean Where you depending on investor money?

00:33:36: Where you... Maybe have low margins currently rather wait a little bit because things are just as with every new industry very immature and inefficient.

00:33:46: So I think this knowledge will grow quickly, also the industry will sort out itself within like say two to five years.

00:33:56: who does what?

00:33:57: Who has which role or kind of business models do emerge here?

00:34:03: slowly get involved in the next two, three four years when really things are getting a little bit more clearer and visible.

00:34:11: And another uncertainty is your customers.

00:34:14: A lot of uncertainties around our people.

00:34:16: accepting this it's highly emotional and irrationally observed topic you know?

00:34:23: The other day I don't know Vemo or something went over some cat in San Francisco Cheered and not yet cried actually so like oh my god, how can you do this?

00:34:35: But I think just three blocks away some human.

00:34:37: Just also drew over cat And nobody cares.

00:34:40: it's very irrational.

00:34:42: So there's another big component is how are people going to take this?

00:34:45: so i think if You uh If you don't have a lot of money you would all want To be at the very very forefront Of everything and basically take The pain or be the pioneer.

00:34:56: you maybe want to wait a little bit until the dust has settled and things are clearer, more standardized or experienced.

00:35:06: How many risky bets can make on an EBIT margin of zero-to-five percent?

00:35:13: Maybe towards the end I would like do rapid fire block.

00:35:18: just get your reaction.

00:35:22: We talked about China before and it's super interesting that you've worked there for a longer time, had these observations.

00:35:28: What is?

00:35:29: one thing Europe should copy from China?

00:35:31: And then one thing they shouldn't.

00:35:34: Well what we should copy is definitely their curiosity and their pragmatism.

00:35:41: Yeah do firsts and then regulate.

00:35:44: That creates lot of value.

00:35:47: And I don't want to talk about the political stuff.

00:35:51: I mean, political stuff is political stuff.

00:35:54: but also sometimes those things can go wrong if someone gives a direction too strongly.

00:36:01: you need really trust these people and they do it in the right way.

00:36:06: so of course there should be some check-in balances for everything.

00:36:13: Copy openness to innovation.

00:36:14: don't copy central planning.

00:36:16: Yeah, yeah Central planning sometimes is also not so bad because now look for example TV industry.

00:36:21: they did a very comprehensive and holistic plan about this.

00:36:26: They didn't just say, okay let's put some subsidies on these vehicles then everybody will buy them?

00:36:31: No they also created the infrastructure that created battery technology.

00:36:35: that wasn't there at one of time.

00:36:37: so basically it created a whole ecosystem including We have to say, make it difficult to run an ICE inside a city.

00:36:48: For example, to regulate the number of cars that can be registered and so on all of this together.

00:36:53: at the end as a customer you would say okay The best choice for me is to buy an EV.

00:37:00: So because everything was there Everything was convenient Everything was ready And This Is Something Which They Actually Did Very Well.

00:37:08: You talked earlier about the pooling that's going on with Moja, one of kind of key experiences and features.

00:37:13: Robotaxi or Pool Shuttles?

00:37:15: Which one do you think will win in most European cities?

00:37:18: by twenty-thirty?

00:37:19: In Europe I definitely thing that Pool Shattles have a better success rate because they are politically wanted.

00:37:26: European cities want to get traffic out off their cities.

00:37:29: look at Paris Look at Helsinki And this is a trend that we observe everywhere.

00:37:34: So it's definitely wanted.

00:37:35: on the other hand, pragmatically seen The ones who have the capital and the guts to do it are currently the robot taxi companies.

00:37:42: so We have to speed up as if you want to Bring us two public transport or make it successful in that reasonable way?

00:37:50: It sounds like when you say that When he said that way If cities want pooling they might have to regulate for it because otherwise As

00:38:01: we see the American companies, they have the capital of the pragmatism to just do stuff and They are doing it already.

00:38:09: I mean think about Munich thing about Berlin what's coming up?

00:38:12: or London.

00:38:13: It will just happen and you know.

00:38:15: we can of course sit there, wait but then I don't want to hear in five years that people complain about others occupied another technology.

00:38:24: That's done our own fault i would say.

00:38:26: Do You Know Of any examples mature if it exists where cities are mandating or considering a kind of pooling factor?

00:38:33: for having and maintaining a license.

00:38:36: No, I don't know whether anybody puts up regulatory hurdles for this but i think what they should do is to basically offer their own pooling service and make it better than robot taxi.

00:38:48: so i think that's

00:38:49: the

00:38:50: way in europe we tend to be open for everyone and not restrict people too much which is good thing because it enhances competition.

00:38:59: on the other hand That also means we need to go the same speed than others, otherwise were left behind.

00:39:04: This was super interesting and the only thing that remains for me is at end of day... ...we alluded a scale of operations like depth-of-experience here in Saan or next meetup that we are organizing on November... ...Nineteenth is on AI & Fleet Management.. And you have introduced us with people from your company who will... be there at the meetup and they will talk about how we're leveraging AI in Fleet Management.

00:39:28: So thank you for that time today, insights And also being very transparent and honest about what works.

00:39:36: before we started recording We found out probably overestimated this speed of adoption of these shared mobility services.

00:39:45: That seem obvious convenient default option.

00:39:55: And I think the products have matured tremendously, but the market share is still surprisingly small so that job was somehow not done

00:40:02: yet.

00:40:02: Yeah i mean there's a lot to be done um... But I think technology will help us and also how society moves forward.

00:40:12: it just probably takes longer than anticipated.

00:40:14: That's a problem!

00:40:15: Also autonomous mobility would help because it increases convenience.

00:40:19: I can't wait, so thanks a lot.

00:40:22: Me neither!

00:40:23: Thank you very much.